Tue 2 Dec 2008
Regardless of what happens with the legal process, I think Plax has exhausted his chances with the Giants. To give him another one would be to play the part of the enabling fool, and would give the impression that his actions – not just in this latest incident, but all year – are acceptable.
They aren’t. I’ve tried to defend Plax for the past few months, referring to his antics as “manageable.” This argument no longer holds. The accumulation of bullshit is too much to overlook. He has to go.
The Giants organization has always prided itself on its moral uprightness. Sure, this is a bit of a fairy tale – see LT, LT, and LT – but you’d like to think there is a grain of truth to that. Now is the time for the Giants to step up and prove it.
That said, I’m sympathetic to the argument that what Plax did doesn’t necessarily make him such a bad guy. Clearly, he’s not the only athlete bringing a loaded gun into a club. Just as clearly, there’s some sort of cultural difference at play here, so it’s not entirely fair to judge him by the standards of my culture.
But that’s sort of the problem: The cultural standards that don’t judge Plax harshly for this are wrong. Because even if he didn’t have malicious intentions, what he did Friday night – he was drinking while fiddling with a unsecured gun in his pants that evidently didn’t have adequate safety controls – was dangerous and uncondonable. It’s up to the Giants, the NFL, and New York City to send that message loud and clear. This means punishing Plax in a more severe way than he and many others might feel is warranted.
If Plax feels victimized here, I do have some sympathy. But there’s also a big part of me that says, “Tough shit.” Throughout his Giants career, the guy has shown no respect for the rules everyone else abides by. Despite the suspension earlier this year and the 50 slap-on-the-wrist fines, he has shown little contrition for repeated unacceptable behavior.
So the Giants should cut him quickly and in whatever way makes sense salary-cap wise. The NFL should suspend him for the remainder of the season. And Bloomberg should keep up his tough talk about punishing him to the full extent of the law. Guns are some serious shit, and if Plaxico Burress has to pay the price so that people understand this, so be it.
December 2nd, 2008 at 11:43 am
You know, all of you who say “get rid of Plax” are fooling yourselves. You act like the Giants “getting rid” of Plax will mean something, when it actually will not. It’s not like he’ll be banned from the NFL or anything. There are guys (Ray Lewis, Popeye Jones, T.O., etc.) that make Burress look like a choirboy. You don’t think that the Redskins, Eagles, Ravens, or God forbid the Cowboys won’t sign Plax in about 2 seconds after the Giants release him? This gun thing is not as big a deal elsewhere as it is in NY/NJ. The guy should be punished and punished severely, several game suspension, fine, probation from the league, etc. Plus, he still needs to deal with the legal issues. If he gets beyond that, I see NO reason that he should be cut from the Giants, just to sign with another team the next day.
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:11 pm
I strongly disagree.
First of all, as MJ mentions, this is probably all a moot point because he’s most likely going to have to serve some serious jail time. He’s got a very un-promising defense so I doubt the prosecutor will allow him to plead to a lesser offense and right now he’s charged with two felonies each carrying at least 3.5 years of jail time—mandatory minimum. Given his celebrity status, I’ll be shocked if he is even out of jail, much less re-instated in the NFL in the next 6 months.
That said, I think that Plax’s most recent transgression should be forgiven. I, for one view this as significantly less blameworthy than the actions of Ray Lewis, Pacman, or even Haynesworth or Moss (backing up his car into a traffic cop). This incident is more dumb than anything else and I think that a lot of his teammates can identify with the situation of carrying a loaded gun, so I don’t think its the type of situation where if Plax does some jail time, gets suspended, and returns in a year—his teammates will feel like a double standard is being set or Plax is a cancer or whatever your argument for him having a negative impact on the team might be.
A lot of these star wide receivers mature as they get older and I believe that this will hopefully provide the wake up call that plax needs. Randy Moss is a good example; his repeated transgressions including taking plays off, backing up into a traffic cop, and leaving with time still left on the playclock were much worse than Plax’s…the vikings traded him away for nothing…and now he’s an ideal citizen with the patriots. (also consider T.O. who has become a much better teammate in Dallas despite his constant distractions; i.e. “that’s my quarterback”). I also think that what distinguishes Plax is that unlike T.O. or Moss, he works hard and has, for the most part, put the team before his own stats. Plax does not take plays off and he has been a relatively solid teammate given the double coverage and lack of production this season.
Finally, part of being a great NFL couch is finding a way to handle problem athletes and I think that Coughlin and the Giants can use this incident to get Plax headed in the right direction again. By far the most sensible way to deal with him is to suspend him, without pay, for the rest of the year and then, if he has his shit in order, allow him to play next year.
Regardless, releasing him, as called for here and by many NFL commentators, is in my opinion just dumb. At the very least, refuse to pay him until he can play again–allowed under NFL contracts–and then trade him. Dude still has significant value.
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Gui Buck, I agree with you that Plax has some redeeming qualities. Maybe those qualities — he’s not concerned about his stats, he plays his ass off on Sunday — were on the table when Plax was being a fuck-off earlier this season. But now, 1) He has clearly crossed the line. His behavior isn’t just dickish — it’s fucking dangerous; and 2) This is the last straw. Enough is enough. No more chances.
Plus, at this point, it’s shouldn’t even a tactical decision about what’s best for our on-field talent. It has become about upholding a moral standard. We have to get rid of the guy, even if it’s not in our immediate interest.
To quote Mike Francesa, “You cannot be what the Giants have always claimed to be and keep Plaxico Burress…. The Giants have always talked about how they’re not the Dallas Cowboys. And now’s the time to prove it.”
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Greg,
I have to disagree with you on this. Bloomberg should shut up and stop trying to exploit this high profile case for political gain (he’s also not doing his prosecutors any favors). Locking Plax up doesn’t improve the world or NYC in any way. Burress only hurt himself, and wouldn’t he be of more use doing community service? Let him speak to kids about the dangers of guns and let people learn from his mistake.
Secondly, I think its amazing how little attention is being given to the fact that Steve Smith had cash and jewelry robbed from him at gunpoint last Tuesday. You don’t think that maybe this was on Plaxico’s mind just a bit? This is so typical of the media’s double standard towards athletes. Everyone thinks its insane that these young, black millionaires feel the need to carry arms, but people are all too happy ignore the numerous incidents of players being held at gunpoint — Sean Taylor, Javon Walker, Richard Collier, Darrent Williams, Dunta Robinson, Eddie Curry, Antonie Walker, Steve Smith, etc, etc, etc. Plaxico’s case gets the first 3 stories on SportsCenter, but you only see one mention of Smith’s robbery scrolling across the bottomline.
There is a problem here. These guys are high profile targets, especially in an awful economy. The Jaguars’ Richard Collier was shot 14 times and left paralyzed from the waist down. You think that might have an effect on other NFL players?
I agree that there are other, better ways of dealing with this situation. Hire a bodyguard like Rothlisburger (although PacMan had a bodyguard and ended up fighting with him, but that’s just PacMan) or don’t bring lots of cash and jewelry to the club (but, frankly, what’s the point of being a professional athlete if you can’t floss at the club?!?). But you also have to understand that these dudes are wired very differently than you or I. They are made to be badass gladiators — we want them to be fearless — and I’m not so sure you can just shut that instinct off.
Also, it’s not like Plaxico’s gun came from the street. He had a permit for it that expired in the last year. Should he have known that NYC’s gun laws are the strictest in the nation and that his FL permit would have been invalid? Perhaps, but I’m a law student who knows next to nothing about gun laws, and can barely remember to change the registration on my car when it expires.
It was a dumb mistake, but it was also pretty harmless, and I think it would be a travesty to see the guy’s life ruined over it. If Dick Cheney can shoot another man in the face while drinking beer and face no punishment, than surely Plax can have a glass of wine and shoot his own thigh without having his life taken from him.
I agree that he’s probably done with the GMEN, but you can bet that he will sign elsewhere and will come back to haunt us the same way he haunted the Steelers. Also, I understand where you are coming from given the way he’s behaved this year, but I really see this as the first serious transgression and think that it could present a chance for a come-to-Jesus meeting if the team embraced him. I imagine this has to impact a guy and maybe it will be a reality check for Plax and cause him to straighten up and rejoin the team if he sees them supporting him. He’s just such a talent. Teams are forced to double him in the redzone and that opens things up for everyone else.
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:53 pm
I sympathize with your position but I disagree with its premise. Its the job of the legal system to punish Plax and send whatever moral message regarding gun registration needs to be sent. The giants main concern should be the welfare of the team; if you believe that keeping him next year after suspending him for the rest of this season will be detrimental to the team then so be it but I don’t agree that the Giants must adopt the role of setting society’s moral standards. Finally, its worth pointing out that his next court date isn’t until March so most likely, if Plax pleads we won’t hear until then and if he goes to trial, we probably won’t know the outcome of that trial until next season (at the earliest) so the gmen will need to chuck him without even a conviction.
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Gui Buck:
I guess that’s what the disagreement comes down to: I feel that sports teams DO need to set some sort of moral example, especially a team like the Giants that prides itself on being a class operation. I realize this is a bit of a fantasy and that moral compromises are made all the time, but this is a clear-cut case where not doing the right thing sends a DISASTROUS public relations message.
And the thing about the outcome of the trial is immaterial. We’re a private organization, not the legal system, so the burden of proof isn’t a conviction. Gimme a break here: We know all we need to know to make our decision. The guy was obviously carrying a gun because he shot himself.
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
additionally, it would be a great tragedy if P-Diddy was able to walk after shooting at a club and Plax gets locked-up. that man has foisted so much garbage upon our ears and has never won a championship for any of my teams.
seriously, the fact that you are quoting Francesca about the Morality of the Giants tells me you are buying in weigh too heavily on all this reactionary shit. give it time. this story will fade and he’s a first time offender and not likely to do time.
also, it’s a shame that the NFL already already put a stop to people ordering H. Smith #17 Giants jerseys, because that was going to be my Hanukkah present to you.
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Interesting debate going on here.
First, Mike Francesa is being a fucking know-it-all asshole about this entire thing. He’s not a lawyer and, somehow, he thinks he knows better than the ones he’s been interviewing. I pretty much take most everything he says on this topic with a grain of salt. Stick to sports, Mike. When it comes to the law, politics, and movies, shut the fuck up. You’re not an expert on everything.
Second, everyone has to calm the fuck down. It’s absolutely necessary to wait and see what develops and what comes out. I agree with the point that in an effort to not favor a celebrity, Plax is probably facing more of an uphill battle than a non-celebrity would be.
Third, Mayor Bloomberg has to shut the fuck up. I think that the prematurity and assuming nature of his comments were completely inappropriate and not in the interests of how our justice system is supposed to work.
Fourth, I don’t entirely disagree with Greg’s fear concerning Plaxico . . . but like our other NYGmen commentators, I’m not so sure I’m willing to make the immediate decision to unload someone who is a truly unique and irreplaceable talent. But you know what? That’s the fan in me talking. If we want to get onto the moral authority issue, I see no problem with the Giants making one last-ditch effort to rehabilitate this guy (as if any other franchise could . . . or would). The Giants, as a franchise, are allegedly like a close-knit family. Plax has problems (legal, emotional, etc.) I would find it far more admirable for the Giants to try and help Plaxico get his shit on track once and for all. If Plax hasn’t learned after something like this, kick him to the curb. Counter-intuitively, I think support is what is needed right now . . . not a brush off. Whether Plax realizes this or not, a scenario such as this one is a classic cry for help.
FINALLY, to reiterate, situations like these call for patient and deliberate decision-making at the risk of doing something rash or doing something uncalled for that will later prove regrettable. At this very moment, with what we know, I see no reason to make any move. We just do not have enough of a context. So let’s all reserve our judgment for the time being and feel lucky that we are living under a blue moon where losing a guy like Plax has not derailed the season. In spite of this, however, losing Plax could hurt both us and him in the long run.
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Well yeah, I agree that he’s guilty, and whether the gmen need to be the moral pinnacle of the league basically represents our fundamental disagreement. But, I also think that 1) we should be able to consider his character as a whole–hence my original post contrasting my moral evaluation of Plax versus other players on whom I might have come out differently–Pacman, 2) if we are going to say that carrying an unlicensed hand-gun automatically warrants a player’s release regardless of our evaluation of his overall character then I think that we might be getting ourselves into some tough territory; whats the line, exactly? Should Pierce be gone as well? He potentially obstructed justice and carried a firearm across state lines; two offenses which I think legally carry stiffer penalties. What about Santonio Holmes, who beat his wife–probably more morally culpable—does that warrant his immediate release?
Ultimately, I think its best to consider all of the factors—many of which we don’t yet know—like is Plax contrite, will he have matured in a year, what type of person is plaxico–is he really an asshole or is he just an idiot that has trouble with following rules, what is the outcome of the legal process, what message does it send to his teammates, how will plax respond to our winning a superbowl without him, etc. The best course, in my opinion, is suspend him for the rest of the season and re-evaluate the situation at the start of next season, at which point you trade him or keep him.
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:41 pm
We’ve been coddling this guy for years. Keeping him around is tantamount to enabling his bullshit. THAT’S what’s not good for him or us.
What he really needs is a kick in the ass and a kick to the curb. Let him cry for help somewhere else. The Giants are not his family — they’re a professional football organization with standards of morality to uphold. If any of us pulled the shit he has pulled, we’d be canned from our jobs in two seconds. Why does this guy get chance after chance?
Enough. It’s too late. He’s had his chances to show good faith, and he has been a dickhead about it time after time. As a Giants fan, I feel betrayed by him.
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
I also feel betrayed and will hate him if he manages to derail the machine that the gmen have become.
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Greg,
I don’t understand why what was a truly idiotic accident makes you feel betrayed. This was not a deliberate act (the gun going off, that is). In my mind, the skipping meetings and blowing the team off is far more of a betrayal. Instead, I see this as a case of an overly paranoid athlete/celebrity who demonstrated very poor judgment by carrying a concealed weapon for self-protection. While the act might not be justifiable, I don’t see it as a betrayal.
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:00 pm
If he feels so paranoid, then maybe he should stay at home with his 1-year old son and not go to the club and start pounding drinks with a loaded gun in his pants. That’s more than idiotic — that’s immoral. Whatever his intention was, he recklessly caused a dangerous situation for himself and everyone around him.
He’s 31 years-old. Time to fucking own up to the consequences of your actions. I’m sick of the excuses with this guy.
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Greg, perhaps you’re right about him staying home. Hence, his mistake was totally idiotic (and dangerous).
But I agree with Gui Buck and Mike in that there is a gulf of difference between the antics of Plax and those of Pacman Jones, Ray Lewis, Jamal Lewis, Michael Irvin, Leon Lett (he was moving drugs, right?), etc. How is what Plax did any different than what happened to Marvin Harrison over this past offseason? (forget about the different legal jurisdictions and consequences)
Should he have stayed home if he didn’t feel safe? Sure. Should he have hired bodyguards? Why not? Is what he did justified? No, not really. But Plax is not a dangerous person. He is a troubled idiot who happens to have a shitload of talent. As much of an asshole as he might be, he’s clearly not nearly the asshole that the TOs and the Barry Bonds of the world are in that his teammates like him.
I realize this doesn’t speak to the alleged crime itself, but that’s not what it seems like we’re talking about. Once again, I’d rather take a wait-and-see approach.
Moreover, I’m never comfortable throwing around the word “moral”. What does that really mean anyway? What was immoral about what Plax did, if his intent was to protect himself? His actions might have been stupid and misguided, but immoral? Beating your wife is immoral. Stealing is immoral. Is being a complete idiot immoral?
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Sorry, but I totally agree with Greg here. Several quick points:
- Michael, re: your point on Diddy not serving jail time vs. Plax - Bloomberg specifically changed the ruling on this after the Diddy case; so that in the future the law would be significantly more onerous for someone carrying a concealed weapon in public. So *IF* Plax is found guilty and IF he faces jail time, than its not comparable to Diddy’s situation because the laws were simply different at that time (and Plax would have high-profile guys like Diddy to thank)
- No one is debating Plax’s worth ON THE FIELD. Obviously he is a true warrior, plays through injuries, commands a double team every time, etc. HOWEVER: he doesn’t buy into Coughlin/Reese’s team building strategy. That’s a major PROBLEM. He put himself above the team one too many times. He’s a talent, but its no longer the Giants responsibility to show patience and coddle him yet again. He is in such obvious and blatant violation of the law (ie carrying a concealed and loaded weapon without a permit, we already _know_ this to be true) that he has given the Giants no choice but to act. Its time for him to pay the price for his selfishness and stupidity.
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:50 pm
I think my indignant stance on this comes down to this: Guns are really fucking dangerous, and accidents happen all the time. It’s pretty disturbing that “troubled idiots” like Plax, to use Dan’s phrase, who obviously have NO FUCKING IDEA what they’re doing with a gun, walk into clubs with a hair-trigger gun in their waistbands. Maybe they don’t intend to do anything bad with the gun, but they intend to drink with A HAIR-TRIGGER GUN IN THEIR PANTS. This is irresponsible and reckless and in that sense, immoral.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:45 pm
I haven’t been following the nitty gritty of the legal side of this, and I’ve been generally pretty removed. My sense is that Plax will not play for the GMEN for roughly 1 calendar year. Then, in late ‘09 and with the Giants fighting for a playoff spot, all will be forgotten and he will suit up in blue with a big #17 on his jersey. That’s just the reality of sports, fandom, the news cycle, our attention span, etc.
Mark my words.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:47 pm
I also wanna know if Greg is gonna head to a Monday night party next time he’s invited! Glad you came out of that other one in one piece?!?!
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:51 pm
update: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/sports/football/03burress.html?_r=1&ref=sports
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Heywood:
I think that your point is a solid one. Either way, Plax is done for the next little while. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens in March. In the meantime, we’re gonna miss this guy in the postseason. That’s all we’ll hear about if/when we get stunned (you know, down the stretch of a game where things just aren’t clicking for us and we’re inexplicably losing to a dangerous postseason Vikings, for example . . . although things aren’t looking to great for them personnel-wise either with both Williams facing a bullshit suspension)
December 2nd, 2008 at 11:48 pm
And one more thing . . . .
What has happened to Plaxico here is what could objectively be referred to as a “life changing event”.
In other words, let’s assume that Plax doesn’t do time. In light of numerous potential mitigating factors that are legally viable (i.e. first-time offender, the question of intent, etc.), I would be surprised if he gets any time. But this is a hypo. Even if Plax manages to escape the very serious and very real consequences that he is currently facing, I would think that odds are he will not forget this out of fear of his having to go through this stress and utter humiliation (albeit well-deserved) again.
Now, I know that my next point falls into a gray area that compels a degree of speculation, but I really don’t believe that Plax is a thug. Therefore, I see Plax as being the type of individual who, in spite of his ego and immaturity, is capable of learning from an incident such as this one as opposed to fines and suspensions.
I am not one to automatically defend my players. There have been plagues on all of my home-teams who I have been very supportive of and glad to see go. But, as far as I’m concerned, I’m not so sure that I think Plax NEEDS to go just yet. Hey, the Ravens never let go of Ray Lewis and have we seen any problems from him??? (and, understanding that he is NOW born-again, this dude WAS a fucking THUG) Plaxico might be an immature, aloof prick in his own way, but Plax is NOT a Ray Lewis or, better yet, a Pacman (Popeye?) Jones or a dude of that ilk where lessons are never learned because they are thugs and, hence, can’t help but do thuggish things.
As much as Plax has been a pain in the ass, he’s brought us all historic plays, a Super Bowl, and GMen lore that will last us a life-time. So let me make it very clear that I am not saying that there will not be a time where I, myself, would say, “You know, Plax really has to go,” but I see no reason to believe that such an assertion need be made right now.
The next few months will help paint a clearer picture of how things might be able to be resolved both in an appropriate and constructive fashion.
December 3rd, 2008 at 9:02 am
I hear your point Dan, but I’m against giving Plax this “one last chance.” He has had plenty of chances to NOT fuck up this year, but he has continued to fuck up with complete impunity. Shit, he even didn’t return Jerry Reese’s calls after this incident. (That’s the second time this year this has happened.)
After we gave him a new contract, he has done nothing but disrespect the organization. Sure, this latest incident was an “accident,” but one that could only happen to someone acting like a total shithead, which is the way this guy has acted all year and, in many ways, for his whole tenure with the Giants. If he hadn’t gotten the point by last Friday, it was too late.
If this really is a “life-changing” moment for Plax, then good for him. But he can change his life elsewhere. It’s asking too much of us to keep him around. To borrow your word, I truly believe the only “appropriate” fashion in which we can handle this is to get rid of the guy.
I feel that you’re making this argument to be about Plax’ long-term psychological health. What you’re saying, I think, is that it is possible for Plax to turn his shit around (particularly after this “life-changing incident”) and the Giants should be there to support him while he does.
But I feel this misses the point. The Giants have to uphold that rules — their rules, the law — matter, and that you can’t keep on breaking them and expect to keep getting away with it because you’re talented. The guy has broken the rules enough times. I know we all like Plax, but we really have no choice here. He has to go.
December 3rd, 2008 at 4:05 pm
From everything I’ve been reading, it sounds like it will take some fucking incredible legal work for Plax to avoid going to jail for at least two years and the most likely outcome, if he’s lucky is 3.5 years. So, we all probably need to shift our perspective to how should the gmen handle the plax situation in three years after he’s served some serious prison time.
Greg: my issue with your argument is that you seem to interchangeably be making two points:
1) From a moral perspective, plax has got to go. As previously stated, I disagree with you there and think that if the dude serves 3+ years in prison then he will have more than re-paid his debt to society and more than adequately sent a moral message to the world.
2) In your last post and others, you seem to argue that its not in the best interest of the team to take Plax back—that, I think, is a point that I think we can reasonably debate. My feeling, as stated previously, is A) I think he’s got the potential to rehabilitate himself more than most and B) I don’t think that it would send a negative message to our team or upset team chemistry to accept Plaxico back after serving his legal sentence. There are no rules being bent for Plax here and if I were one of Plax’s many friends on the team, I think I’d like to feel as if my employer would stand behind me and not impose further punishment on me, like the family they so often claim to be, once I’ve served what many view to be an overly harsh sentence.
December 8th, 2008 at 11:45 am
[...] Vacchiano of the Daily News.) But Plax, for all his off-field antics – which, in my mind, have crossed the line and demand his removal from the team – was a total team player between the [...]
December 8th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Greg,
Good post but I disagree with you okaying Mayor Scum-berg’s tirade about prosecuting Plax to the full extent. And to what Cody said about the gun law’s being changed, that’s all and well but regardless of what the law is, having a Mayor use his position as a bully-pulpit calling for your having to serve the MAX time is completely uncalled for. Diddy didtn’ have Mayor Giuliani saying throw the book at him. If the law has any integerity then let it run it’s course. I agree with most posters here who feel that Plax is an idiot because that is exactly what he is. Afterall, if your in a hold-up situation, having a weapon will get you hurt quicker than if you didn’t have it. But in Plaxico’s gun case, he was clearly scared about what happened to Smith and didnt’ have any malicious intent, especially because he wasn’t spinning his gun like a cowboy at the Ok Corral and dropped it and shot HIMSELF! I think his defense can show that Plax wanted to have some sense of security, as stupid as it was, because like you all said, hire body guards or don’t go out at all.
What kills me the most about the Mayor going all crazy about Plax is that he has been on the record as saying that he wouldn’t have amassed his fortune if he didnt’ cheat a bit and bend rules. But when he’s the person with his name behind the law then you HAVE to serve the MAX time.
As far as Plax remaining on the team, heforced the Giants hands on this one so whatever they do (especially given his attitude this entire season)including getting rid of him is justified. Lastly, as a fan, it sucks that we’re now going to have to be without his services for such an idiotic decision.